By the way – even people of the IDF now say that the shelling of the school was a mistake.

I offer no opinion on Fox News, but it is one of our leading news outlets in this country and many people criticize it as propaganda.

By the way, Alan, the Guardian is not “utter propaganda” – in fact it’s one of the leading British newspapers. And yes, it is well known that the Iraelis use human shields in an extensive manner.

SDEROT, Israel — A tower of white smoke rose from the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun after another Israeli bombardment Monday morning, and a half-dozen Israelis, perched on a dusty hilltop, gazed at the scene like armchair military strategists.

Avi Pilchick took a long swig of Pepsi and propped a foot on the plastic patio chair he’d carried up the hillside to watch the fighting. “They are doing good,” Pilchick, 20, said of Israeli forces battling Palestinian militants in Gaza, “but they can do more.”

Somewhere in Beit Hanoun, Ashraf El-Masri’s family cowered in their concrete tenement home, their neighborhood surrounded by Israeli soldiers. El-Masri said that five residents had been killed by Israeli shelling that morning, and the blasts had traumatized the youngest of his nine children into a terrified silence.

The scenes were separated by less than two miles, but they illustrated the dramatically different perspectives on Israel’s ground incursion into the Gaza Strip on its second full day.

The notion that Israel should be concerned with a “hearts and minds”program is silly, Tom. It’s not like Israel is going to do anything that will suddenly make the Palestinians love it. Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, all could rocket every square inch of Israel tomorrow if they wanted to. They don’t refrain out a desire for peaceful coexistence, or because of burgeoning economic relations. They refrain because of military deterrence.

There isn’t a great solution here, just the best and most justified one.

Yes, the Israeli government had to take action against the rockets. No government would tolerate that. And yes, the Israeli government has acted with greater concern for innocents than most others in the world. They do warn people and they do take actions to reduce civilian casualties from what they would otherwise be, often at serious cost to themselves. All of that should be stated openly.

Alan admitted that the intervention in Lebanon did not turn out well:
“Tom is correct that the 2006 Hezbollah war did not turn out well for Israel. but not because it was unjustified. Rather the problem was poor management of the war.”

The bombing of bridges throughout the country and the destruction of much of the infrastructure, including milk processing plants and other quite innocent facilities, inflicted great costs on the majority who did not support Hezbollah. Israel greatly increased Hezbollah’s power. Many predict a similar outcome for Palestinians. We will see. What we do know is that a very large multiple of the number of innocent Israeli victims of Hamas’s rockets are now innocent victims of Israeli military power. It’s not merely regrettable. It’s a horror.

(yes, the guardian is utter propaganda. just look at the glowing obits they gave sheikh yassin and nizar rayan. real, awful terrorists, the worst of the worst, described in terms that would make ahmindenajad blush).

There is no moral equivalency here. There is, however, a double-standard, as there always is with Israel. And even though not everyone who engages in the double standard is aware of it, or wants to acknowledge it, we all know what it’s based on.

I did not “seriously propose” that. Nor, for that matter, did I jokingly propose that.

For the record, I do not believe any civilian deserves to be shelled. Also for the record, I know the difference trading with Gaza and trading with Hamas. Israel can allow individual Gazans to buy necessities from people outside the Strip without “trad[ing] with an organization committed to the country’s destruction.”

Could you please write a post detailing what you think Israel should do in these circumstances?

What do you think would be more moral, effective, and fullfil its duty to protect its citizens?

I suppose the “anti-zionist” pseudo-libertarians could try to explain an alternative approach to deal with Hamas’ call for wholesale slaughter and religious dictatorship, but they are too busy frothing with hatred for zionism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jan/02/israel1

Basem Maswadeh knew he was in trouble when an Israeli soldier pushed him into the barber’s chair and reached for the clippers.
The humiliation of a shaved head – or, more accurately, having chunks of hair ripped out by the brutal wielding of the shears – was the start of an ordeal that culminated with Mr Maswadeh and two friends standing in a Hebron street as Israeli troops shot over their shoulders at stone-throwing Palestinians.

“The soldiers hid behind our backs as they pushed us forward,” said Mr Maswadeh. “Then they put their guns on our shoulders and began shooting. We felt our eardrums burning, but when we tried to put our hands over our ears, they beat our hands away. The noise was terrible because the gun was right next to my ear.”

http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp

http://www.palestineremembered.com/GeoPoints/Palestinians_as_Israeli_Human_Sheilds_5358/index.html

Are you seriously proposing that a country deserves to have its civilians shelled because it refuses to trade with an organization committed to the country’s destruction, with a history of sending suicide bombers over to kill that country’s civilians?

This is almost like saying, we asked for 9/11 because we didn’t recognize the Taliban government in Afghanistan. Or that Cuba has the right to indiscriminantly murder people in Florida, because we do not trade with it. Except that of course, neither Afghanistan pre-9/11 or Cuba, ever, had violently acted on a goal to destroy the U.S.

Here is a video of Hamas terrorists firing mortars from a UN school two years ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI&feature=channel_page

Where was the outrage then? Oh yeah, it was only Israelis being hit.

Of course it is deplorable when ALL civilians are killed. The reponsibility lies with the people who use human shields, not with those who defend themselves against the attacks.

That isn’t really fair, David. Yes, there is a sense in which the Israeli government “brought along” the children of Sderot when it imposed that lethal blockade on the Gaza Strip. But how could you suggest that this justifies Hamas’ response? Especially when its “action to stop the rampage” is not likely to end Israel’s efforts, and in fact has led to still more Palestinian deaths?