Comments on: Our Case for the Right to Bear Arms Argued Today http://tomgpalmer.com/2010/01/23/our-case-for-the-right-to-bear-arms-argued-today/ Personal website and weblog of the libertarian thinker Thu, 02 Feb 2012 04:34:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Tom David http://tomgpalmer.com/2010/01/23/our-case-for-the-right-to-bear-arms-argued-today/comment-page-1/#comment-19360 Tom David Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:19:08 +0000 http://tomgpalmer.com/?p=4744#comment-19360 Mr. Palmer, I am extremely interested in this case because, as I am sure you know, Wisconsin is one of the two states that does not allow firearms to be carried concealed. Assuming that you prevail in your case v. DC, and that Mr. Gura is successful in McDonald v. Chicago (as is predicted), Wisconsin will be required to examine their state statutes relating to the prohibition of CCW. Can you please state the current status of the DC case, and if you know an approximate timeframe when a decision from the court will be expected? If a court decision is in your favor, I will be contacting the Wisconsin Attorney General asking for an opinion on how to overturn Wisconsin's fringe carry laws. Best Wishes. Mr. Palmer,
I am extremely interested in this case because, as I am sure you know, Wisconsin is one of the two states that does not allow firearms to be carried concealed. Assuming that you prevail in your case v. DC, and that Mr. Gura is successful in McDonald v. Chicago (as is predicted), Wisconsin will be required to examine their state statutes relating to the prohibition of CCW.

Can you please state the current status of the DC case, and if you know an approximate timeframe when a decision from the court will be expected? If a court decision is in your favor, I will be contacting the Wisconsin Attorney General asking for an opinion on how to overturn Wisconsin’s fringe carry laws. Best Wishes.

]]> By: Charles N. Steele http://tomgpalmer.com/2010/01/23/our-case-for-the-right-to-bear-arms-argued-today/comment-page-1/#comment-19021 Charles N. Steele Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:44:02 +0000 http://tomgpalmer.com/?p=4744#comment-19021 Very well stated! When I read critics such as Theaton, I wonder how *they* would propose to assert their (moral) rights in a case like this. As for "perceived freedom" vs. "true freedom," if after this lawsuit one can carry where before one couldn't, they are freer. I want real world freedom, and am not interested in waiting for a hypothetical world of imagined perfect freedom. Very well stated!

When I read critics such as Theaton, I wonder how *they* would propose to assert their (moral) rights in a case like this.

As for “perceived freedom” vs. “true freedom,” if after this lawsuit one can carry where before one couldn’t, they are freer. I want real world freedom, and am not interested in waiting for a hypothetical world of imagined perfect freedom.

]]> By: Tom G. Palmer http://tomgpalmer.com/2010/01/23/our-case-for-the-right-to-bear-arms-argued-today/comment-page-1/#comment-18917 Tom G. Palmer Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:17:12 +0000 http://tomgpalmer.com/?p=4744#comment-18917 Theaton, I believe that you are confusing a moral right with a legal right, as well as being confused about the effect of the legal decision. No simple citizen had the legal right to own a firearm or to register a firearm (to be precise in this case, a handgun) in the District of Columbia prior to the Heller decision. Heller attempted to do so, as did I, and we were not allowed to do so. (Heller got a letter explaining that; I did not.) So the restriction took the form of a ban. That ban was lifted by order of the court. When I went to register my firearm, it was not easy, but I was not refused. (I registered my Smith & Wesson .38 first, then attempted to register my Glock 26, specifying that the intended use of the latter firearm was that “I intend to carry this firearm, loaded, in public, for self-defense, when not kept in my home.” That was denied. I later returned and registered it as a weapon to be kept at home. That denial is the basis of the suit.) So we went from no ownership to restricted ownership. The moral right (whatever it may be) was not changed. The legal right was, and it was changed in the right direction. The moral right, which was not respected at all prior to the Heller decision, was not made into anything else. In all cases, someone has to determine whether the use of a firearm is restricted by reasonable regulation. (Regulation in this case means being subject to a rule, not being subject to arbitrary whim.) If you brandish a weapon, was it in self-defense, or to frighten an innocent person? "The people" don't make that decision; some person or group of persons does. Was the speech so loud as to inflict harm on others (say, by breaking their windows or awakening them at 2 am)? Someone has to determine that. In the case of DC, the city council (not "local law enforcement") determined that they could ban handguns. The court ruled that they could not. But they can regulate their use and forbid carrying them on playgrounds, or on airplanes, or in court rooms, to take a few examples. Such regulations do not affect the moral right, nor do they convert either a moral right or a legal right into a "privilege." You should be more careful and precise in your use of words. It would increase the precision of your thought. Theaton, I believe that you are confusing a moral right with a legal right, as well as being confused about the effect of the legal decision. No simple citizen had the legal right to own a firearm or to register a firearm (to be precise in this case, a handgun) in the District of Columbia prior to the Heller decision. Heller attempted to do so, as did I, and we were not allowed to do so. (Heller got a letter explaining that; I did not.) So the restriction took the form of a ban. That ban was lifted by order of the court. When I went to register my firearm, it was not easy, but I was not refused. (I registered my Smith & Wesson .38 first, then attempted to register my Glock 26, specifying that the intended use of the latter firearm was that “I intend to carry this firearm, loaded, in public, for self-defense, when not kept in my home.” That was denied. I later returned and registered it as a weapon to be kept at home. That denial is the basis of the suit.) So we went from no ownership to restricted ownership. The moral right (whatever it may be) was not changed. The legal right was, and it was changed in the right direction. The moral right, which was not respected at all prior to the Heller decision, was not made into anything else.

In all cases, someone has to determine whether the use of a firearm is restricted by reasonable regulation. (Regulation in this case means being subject to a rule, not being subject to arbitrary whim.) If you brandish a weapon, was it in self-defense, or to frighten an innocent person? “The people” don’t make that decision; some person or group of persons does. Was the speech so loud as to inflict harm on others (say, by breaking their windows or awakening them at 2 am)? Someone has to determine that. In the case of DC, the city council (not “local law enforcement”) determined that they could ban handguns. The court ruled that they could not. But they can regulate their use and forbid carrying them on playgrounds, or on airplanes, or in court rooms, to take a few examples. Such regulations do not affect the moral right, nor do they convert either a moral right or a legal right into a “privilege.” You should be more careful and precise in your use of words. It would increase the precision of your thought.

]]> By: theaton http://tomgpalmer.com/2010/01/23/our-case-for-the-right-to-bear-arms-argued-today/comment-page-1/#comment-18900 theaton Wed, 27 Jan 2010 19:17:42 +0000 http://tomgpalmer.com/?p=4744#comment-18900 When you ask Government for permission to do something, it is not a right but a privilege. How many times did Mr. Heller attempt to register a firearm after the decision before a license was granted? Reasonable restrictions are reinforced in Heller. The founding fathers wanted the people to decide what was reasonable, not the local law enforcement. You may have perceived freedom, but you don't have true freedom. While I agree it is better than it was before, I stand by may statement that Heller helped to make a right a privilege. When you ask Government for permission to do something, it is not a right but a privilege. How many times did Mr. Heller attempt to register a firearm after the decision before a license was granted? Reasonable restrictions are reinforced in Heller. The founding fathers wanted the people to decide what was reasonable, not the local law enforcement. You may have perceived freedom, but you don’t have true freedom. While I agree it is better than it was before, I stand by may statement that Heller helped to make a right a privilege.

]]> By: Charles N. Steele http://tomgpalmer.com/2010/01/23/our-case-for-the-right-to-bear-arms-argued-today/comment-page-1/#comment-18897 Charles N. Steele Wed, 27 Jan 2010 06:51:37 +0000 http://tomgpalmer.com/?p=4744#comment-18897 Keep up the great work on this, Tom (and Alan Gura and the rest)! Keep up the great work on this, Tom (and Alan Gura and the rest)!

]]> By: Tom G. Palmer http://tomgpalmer.com/2010/01/23/our-case-for-the-right-to-bear-arms-argued-today/comment-page-1/#comment-18896 Tom G. Palmer Wed, 27 Jan 2010 05:15:00 +0000 http://tomgpalmer.com/?p=4744#comment-18896 It would be difficult to know how to pack so much ignorance into as short a space as "theaton" has done. Alan and his team succeeded in lifting a ban on ownership of guns. As a consequence we now have more freedom than before. There are time, place, and manner restrictions on the exercise of other rights, such as the right to freedom of speech (which does not imply the right to march with a megaphone and a brass band down a residential street at 2 am, nor the right to issue credible threats of murder or mayhem, to take two obvious examples). Thanks to Alan, the authorities can no longer rely on the argument that reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions can include an outright ban, whether on speech or on firearms ownership. Now, having vindicated the right to “keep” arms, he is working to vindicate our right to “bear” arms. And I am glad that he’s on the job. It would be difficult to know how to pack so much ignorance into as short a space as “theaton” has done. Alan and his team succeeded in lifting a ban on ownership of guns. As a consequence we now have more freedom than before. There are time, place, and manner restrictions on the exercise of other rights, such as the right to freedom of speech (which does not imply the right to march with a megaphone and a brass band down a residential street at 2 am, nor the right to issue credible threats of murder or mayhem, to take two obvious examples). Thanks to Alan, the authorities can no longer rely on the argument that reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions can include an outright ban, whether on speech or on firearms ownership. Now, having vindicated the right to “keep” arms, he is working to vindicate our right to “bear” arms. And I am glad that he’s on the job.

]]> By: theaton http://tomgpalmer.com/2010/01/23/our-case-for-the-right-to-bear-arms-argued-today/comment-page-1/#comment-18891 theaton Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:17:15 +0000 http://tomgpalmer.com/?p=4744#comment-18891 Isn't it humorous how people are now calling Alan Gura an "outstanding lawyer" and a "super Second Amendment defender." In Heller, he assisted the anti's in further turning a right into a privilege. Isn’t it humorous how people are now calling Alan Gura an “outstanding lawyer” and a “super Second Amendment defender.” In Heller, he assisted the anti’s in further turning a right into a privilege.

]]> By: lysander http://tomgpalmer.com/2010/01/23/our-case-for-the-right-to-bear-arms-argued-today/comment-page-1/#comment-18890 lysander Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:57:03 +0000 http://tomgpalmer.com/?p=4744#comment-18890 "Resistance to sudden violence, for the preservation not onl of my person, my limbs, and life, but of my property, is an indisputable right of nature which I have never surrendered to the public by the compact of society, and which perhaps I could not surrender if I would." - John Adams It is my natural right to offer such "Resistance to sudden violence" with tooth, claw or the tool I deem necessary. “Resistance to sudden violence, for the preservation not onl of my person, my limbs, and life, but of my property, is an indisputable right of nature which I have never surrendered to the public by the compact of society, and which perhaps I could not surrender if I would.” – John Adams
It is my natural right to offer such “Resistance to sudden violence” with tooth, claw or the tool I deem necessary.

]]> By: D.C.'s Gun Carry Ban Challenged - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine http://tomgpalmer.com/2010/01/23/our-case-for-the-right-to-bear-arms-argued-today/comment-page-1/#comment-18844 D.C.'s Gun Carry Ban Challenged - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine Mon, 25 Jan 2010 14:14:12 +0000 http://tomgpalmer.com/?p=4744#comment-18844 [...] Tom Palmer (one of the original plaintiffs in the Second Amendment-vindicating Heller case) discusses a new lawsuit he's a plaintiff in, challenging D.C.'s continuing ban on public carrying of weapons for the [...] [...] Tom Palmer (one of the original plaintiffs in the Second Amendment-vindicating Heller case) discusses a new lawsuit he's a plaintiff in, challenging D.C.'s continuing ban on public carrying of weapons for the [...]

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