The U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Zalmay Khalilzad, told the Security Council that Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov had told U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that Saakashvili “must go.”
….
“Sometimes there are democratically elected or semi-democratically elected leaders who do things which create grave problems for their countries,” he [Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin] told reporters after the meeting. “So sometimes, those leaders should contemplate how useful they have become to their people.”
And then there’s that little Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline that goes through Georgia and thereby circumvents Russian-controlled pipelines. (Interestingly, a Turkish section was bombed by PKK guerrillas the day before the recent conflict started.)
That he-said she-said stuff will cause trouble every time!
That’s not ‘she-said he-said stuff’, that’s what they’re actually doing here.
That’s not ‘he-said she-said stuff’, that’s what they’re actually doing here.
The pipeline counts, no doubt, but it is not the main reason. The Russian are now making a statement that the former soviet republics will not be allowed to break away like the former Warsaw pact countries (the Baltic states). Since the disintegration of USSR in 1992, they have tried to keep in all these states either loyal/puppet regimes, separatist enclaves under a de facto Russian protectorate (Transnistria, Abhazia etc) usually run by outright mafias and never missed a chance to intervene as “peacekeeper” whenever ethnic-political conflicts emerged in the Commonwealth of Independent States. The current Georgian government was aiming at breaking the chained that the post-soviet Russia constructed around these states. This could not be tolerated because it would have set a dangerous precedent, especially if things would have gone so far as Georgia to join NATO.
I don’t believe the Georgian government is entirely innocent in its dealings with South Ossetia and Abhazia (which – if they want to – should be left to go independent or Russian), but the desire of that Government to get out of Russia’s (indirect) control is a desired that I would expect is deeply shared by all Georgians – and its an understandable and deep desire which is probably hard to understand in one is not coming from a small and insecure country, which has a very strong identity (first Christianized country in the world, 300 A.D., own alphabet, Bible translated in the vernacular from early on etc) but which was historically ruled for centuries by surrounding empires.
I’ve just watched Serghei Ivanov’s – Russia’s deputy prime minister, I think – statement earlier and I stroked by the way he turned – with a superb Oxford accent – all the typical justifications for “humanitarian interventionism” that the US have build-up over the last decade or so into a pro domo defense of the Russian military intervention. It’s sad, but ultimately rather true, that the recent US foreign policy can also count among its achievement fuelling this kind of “moral equivalence”.
“The current Georgian government was aiming at breaking the chained that the post-soviet Russia constructed around these states.”
Really? Meanwhile, he has been very diligent about “chaining” unwilling Ossetians to his country. The U.S. should stay out of this mess. If the Kosovars should be able to secede, so should the South Ossetians.
After Georgians were thrown out of South Ossetia, and then Russia’s government handed out passports, the case for separatism of South Ossetia is severely weakened. It may be the case that there should have been a separation, but if the Ossetian regions should secede from Georgia, should the Georgians in Ossetia be allowed to secede from South Ossetia?
Russia is not acting as any kind of an honest broker, as secession was brutally crushed in Chechnya by the same government that is crushing Georgia.
As this is written, it seems that Russian troops are occupying Georgia and moving to Tbilisi, and not merely the two regions that had already been occupied.
This is aggression and invasion and nothing else. It is about punishing the nations that were once under the Russian power and now are independent.
Honest broker?
South Ossetia has been defacto independent for several years and the U.S. did nothing in that time to act as an “honest broker” to recognize that fact or intercede as a broker. In fact, it did the opposite. It supported the Georgian regime without (apparently) restraining them in any way. It is all power politics my friend for the same reason that U.S. support of the ugly, ugly dictatorship in Uzbekistan is power politics.
“it seems that Russian troops are occupying Georgia and moving to Tbilisi, and not merely the two regions that had already been occupied.”
The Russians seem to be following our lead. The United States bombed Serbia which was not part of Kosovo and, had we listened to McCain we would have sent “boot on the ground there.”
The MSM propaganda campaign to make the Georgians into angels is quite appalling. The media has completely failed, for example, that Georgia’s “democracy” has imposed martial law, shut down the press, and brutally put down demonstrations only last November!
Your claim that it is invasion and “nothing else” does not hold water. BTW, what are you suggesting? A new Cold or Hot War to stop something that the U.S. would probably do if conditions were similar in Mexico.
We are not getting the full story here in the west. I believe that Georgia is our client state and that we goaded Georgia into attacking the Russian “peacekeepers” in So. Ossetia. Russia is of course responding to this break in the cease fire, perhaps disproportionately. The BTC pipeline carries roughly 1% of world oil so it is not insubstantial. It was hit in Turkey by the PKK rebels 2-3 days before Aug 8, and they are still trying to contain the fire. The Caspian Sea basin contains the 3rd largest proven oil resereves. Also, Georgia woule be a bottleneck for Russian troops attemping to help Iran. Need to think about this.
South Ossetia only became part of Georgia during the chaos years of the Bolshevik revolution. In 1936 Stalin (formerly of Gori, Georgia) incorporated South Ossetia to Georgia. This should have been resolved peacefully in 1992 – now it seems to be much too late.
The crowd around Putin will use this to teach Saakashvili and all local governments too independent for Russian tastes a lesson….
Putin Lied, People Died…
I would like to post a few comments on all the elaborations above:
1. â??South Ossetia only became part of Georgia during the chaos years of the Bolshevik revolution. In 1936 Stalin (formerly of Gori, Georgia) incorporated South Ossetia to Georgia. This should have been resolved peacefully in 1992 – now it seems to be much too late.â?
Dear Austrian, youâ??d better carefully read the books on history, study the maps, etc. The territory currently called South Ossetia has always been the part of Georgia. It has always been inhabited by the Georgians, and only after the 1917 Bolshevik revolution, the massive immigration of Ossetians from the North Caucasus begun. The census of 1908 conducted by the Russian Empire (even Russian Empire considered this to be a part of East Georgian Gubernia) states that there were only two (!) Ossetian families in Tskhinvali (capital of SO) then. Even later, the Georgians represented the substantial part (if not majority) of regionâ??s population. It is true that all this process has been initiated by the sick fantasy of Stalin: the autonomous units of SO and Abkhazia were created by the communist government, but the only purpose of doing so was the principle very well known from the times of ancient world â?? Divide et Impera, which means â??divide and ruleâ??. And the situation was perfectly used by the successors of the communist regime in early 1990-ies.
2. â??Really? Meanwhile, he has been very diligent about “chaining” unwilling Ossetians to his country. The U.S. should stay out of this mess. If the Kosovars should be able to secede, so should the South Ossetiansâ?.
You might have been right, if the situation was different. As I have mentioned before, the Georgian population represented quite substantial part of total population in SO. So what do we do with those Georgians living there and not willing to join Russia (which, by the way, is the only possible outcome of Ossetia secession) in this case? Besides (see above), the territory is a historic part of Georgia. We have never had any problems with Ossetians and all this â??fight for freedom and independenceâ?? has been inspired by Russia in early 1990-ies through their marionettes, who actually are nothing but the gangsters. Ah, I can imagine you sarcastically smiling! You donâ??t believe me! And youâ??re right! How can you believe me, when you do not even know who I am? Bet here are some facts that might be interesting: number of Ossetians living in Georgia outside of this breakaway region is larger then number of them living inside. Hundreds of Ossetians are working in public structures of Georgia, while there are almost no Ossetians left in the public services of what they call de-facto administration. Most of the latter are Russians (ethnically Russians, coming from Russia, and not just ethnical Ossetians from SO, who were granted the Russian citizenship). And we even have Ossetian officers and soldiers in our army.
The US should stay out of this mess? Well thatâ??s up to you to decide, but let me tell you that there have already been situations in the human history, when the democratic west chose to stay out, and weâ??ve seen what the consequences were. You donâ??t remember? Here are the examples: Anschluss, division of Poland and Baltic States by Hitler and Stalinâ?¦ Does this remind you anything? No? Then itâ??s OK â?? youâ??d better stay out.
As for Kosovars, I cannot judge the situation, because I have no sufficient information. But even if the decision in one particular case was wrong, does this mean that all the decisions in all the other cases shall also be made incorrect? Maybeâ?¦
3. â??The MSM propaganda campaign to make the Georgians into angels is quite appalling.â?
Of course we are not angels, and we shall admit that our previous (and, to the lesser extent, the current) leadership has made dramatic mistakes in relation with these people. However, when any conflict arises, there are always two parties and in all cases both parties bare their share of guilt. Georgians committed crimes in 1990-ies against Ossetians, and vice versa. Furthermore, Georgians committed crimes in 2000-ies against Ossetians, and vice versa. And it is a real shame that two nations living side-by-side for the centuries became the tool for satisfaction of the imperialistic ambitions of â??Evil Empireâ?? (and Russia still remains an empire in the worst sense of this word). In compare to Russia, both Georgia and Ossetia are real angels (everything is relative in this world).
4. â??The Russians seem to be following our lead. The United States bombed Serbia which was not part of Kosovoâ?¦â?
Aha! How right you are! They did, and we shall admit this. But then again, did they do right? And shall we extrapolate an incorrect decision to all the other cases? Even so, there is one very important distinction: I do not remember US bombing hospitals, residential areas, civil airports, etc., do you?
I shall apologise for being too passionate and non-native English speaker. As for being passionate â?? it is very hard to stay cool, when shells are exploding just a few kilometres away, and as for non-native speaker, this is something I cannot do anything about.
Thanks.
Correction: Armenia, not Georgia, was actually the first country where Christianity became offical religion (in 300 AD); sorry for the confusion; still, Christianitity became an official religion in Georgia as well a few decades after. Anyway, the basic idea I was trying to get at is very clear – there is a strong Georgian national identity.
Irakli: thanks for your thoughts. They’ve been very informative, and you shouldn’t worry or apologize about your passion or English (which is, by the way, probably better than the average American blog commenter.)
Stay safe, and let us hope that cooler heads prevail, and a just peace is restored as soon as possible.
As for the rest of us, imagine what America’s reaction would be if Southern California decided to break away, stop paying taxes or allowing access to our national security forces, and became autonomous. It might not be just to try and hold onto the people by force (which Georgia seems to not have been doing, as most Ossetians apparently had Russian passports, and could’ve emigrated wherever they wished,) but Russia has no more, and probably less, of a claim to the territory.
If I thought that Ossetia could exist as an independent territory, then I would think that is the best solution, because I regard self-determination as the highest principle of justice. However, as Irakli rightly points out the only real possible outcomes are reconciliation with Georgia, a return to the previous status quo of autonomy, or annexation by Russia. Since I really can’t see Russia going through all this trouble for two small regions with little substantial resources, it seems much more likely that Moscow is just trying to undermine Georgian authority and flex its muscle to reassert control over the Caucasus. The civilized world should not sit by and allow a democratically elected administration to be leaned on in this manner.
Irakli – many thanks for the information. I, of course, only have the information which is available in basic history books, newspaper articles and wikipedia. I didn’t know the thing about the census in 1908 and do not have the special local knowledge you have.
Personally I think it was a great blunder that Saahashvili attacked South Ossetia. A monumental miscalculation.
Let’s hope that Russia will not use this opportunity to make Georgia a political colony of some sorts.
All the best also for you and your family who certainly go through different times.
Dear Austrian, thanks for your kind wishes. I really hope that everything works out and no more people will suffer from this brutal hostility. However, Saakashvili just ordered to open fire in response to Ossetians bombing Georgian villages. And another fact: within few hours of Georgian troops starting to fire back, 1,000 tanks and heavy armoured units entered conflict zone from Russia. It is just impossible to mobilize such a number and send to the other country, unless you plan everything beforehand. As our president mentioned in his interview to BBC, this operation was more operative and larger in scale than Soviet invasion into Afganistan in 1979, needless to say that Afganistan is much bigger, both in territory and in population, than Georgia. Raises the questions, isn’t it?
its not that ur englishis bad. its just you dont say “the” when necessary in ur sentences. Anywyas i think the west should’nt get too involved let them handle this. We have already sent our message to russia, andl let’s face it there is nothing mucht eh west can do Russia aint no iraq,iran or north korea thats for sure. So…. teh gfeorgians just gotta hang int ehre and plead with Putin, even a man like him can understand pleading. Now REMEMBER pleading isnt appeasement its simply requesting that Putin not excalate this further. The georgians could even use reference to ww2 and remid the Russian how Hitler-like they are acting. That should send a clear emotional message i hope.
its not that ur englishis bad. its just you dont say “the” when necessary in ur sentences. Anywyas i think the west should’nt get too involved let them handle this. We have already sent our message to russia, andl let’s face it there is nothing mucht eh west can do Russia aint no iraq,iran or north korea thats for sure. So…. teh gfeorgians just gotta hang int ehre and plead with Putin, even a man like him can understand pleading. Now REMEMBER pleading isnt appeasement its simply requesting that Putin not excalate this further. The georgians could even use reference to ww2 and remid the Russian how Hitler-like they are acting. That should send a clear emotional message i hope.
Itâ??s not that my English is bad? Itâ??s me missing â??theâ?? in the sentences? Bless you! Please donâ??t refer to me, when you find yourself trapped in the most bastardish thing in the world, called the â??Brotherhood of Manâ? and imposed by the Russian Empire.
Iâ??m not to react to all this, since I can be considered partisan. However, remember, and recall, some fat guy warning you, when youâ??ll be facing the global catastrophe.
One thing I would add to Irakli’s perceptive comments: the claim that this Russian attack is to ensure the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia is crazy. They’re being absorbed into the new Russian empire, and only need to look at Chechnya to see the Russian policy on self-determination.
It’s tragic that the West seems to have no backbone when it comes to Russian/siloviki thugishness.
I hate to bring up the fever swampers at “Mises Institute, but rather predictably they are on Putin’s side. Links on my blog.
Looks like “Antiwar.com” is supporting the war on the Russian side with Justin Raimondo promoting it, in his Joseph Goebbels-style stance:
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13292
“Antiwar.com” favors the war quite well exposed with Justin Raimondo’s Joseph Goebbels-style rantings:
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13292
Wow. I strongly oppose sending troops to Georgia. No way. But the fever swampers are not for peace; they are quite openly for Russian imperialism!
We should be on the side of all civilians who have had their natural rights violated by the Georgian and Russian regimes. The South Ossetians have every right to resist the rule of our depraved neo-con regime’s puppet government that our criminal CIA installed in Georgia. Likewise, Georgian civilians have every right to resist the rule of the US puppet regime, and they have every right to resist the Russian military.
Russian civilians have also been exploited because they are coerced into supporting the evil Putin regime and Russian military. Furthermore, American civilians have been exploited by the neo-con regime via being coerced into subsidizing and propping up the Georgian regime.
Joshua, have you ever been in Georgia?
Joshua’s ignorance is astounding; I suspect he’s been hoodwinked by the Rockwell contingent.
The Rose Revolution wasn’t a CIA project, but a home-grown event, like Ukraine’s Orange Revolution that followed. The arguments that these were neocon CIA plots came from the old Soviet rulers, and their friends in places like the Mises Institute and Antiwar.com. Joshua is simply repeating what is essentially KGB disinformation.
Irakli, well it was a trap. Saakashvili was a great fool to attack South Ossetia and thus provide Russia with a pretext to met out punishment on Georgia. The Russians, of course, had already lined up all the military hardware necessary to attack Georgia. Now Georgia has no army whatsoever and their chances of EU or NATO membership are all but nonexistent.
Mr Saakashvili’s credit in Western Europe was greatly diminished by his actions against the opposition last year. This guy has not very many friends. The people of Georgia may have realized this by now…..
By the way – do I know you? Have you been to one of the seminars in which Tom Palmer lectured?:-)
Austrian, no doubts that it was a provocation, but what else was there for our government to do? I do not want you to think that I am in a big favour of our (or any other) government and president. In my point of view, any government is evil, unfortunately necessary at this stage of human development. The only function government shall be implementing, is protection of its citizens. So what our government should do in case when the other side was bombing Georgian villages and killing their population? Should they just withdraw and look from the distance? I am sure that they would enter our territory in any case, and start looting and doing all this terrible things they do right now. I understand all the negative consequences: destroyed settlements and army, displaced people, etc. But, look, although these people are displaced, theyâ??re still alive.
Thatâ??s why I think that action of Saakashvili was not unreasonable. It gave population of the region time to live the battlefield and survive.
I am usually interpreting at Tomâ??s lectures, but only in Georgia. If you have visited Georgia together with him, it is more then probable that weâ??ve met. But Iâ??ve never attended any of his seminars outside of Georgia.
Well I hope there will be a peaceful resolution to the conflict which leaves Georgia an independent state. This is not really sure by now….
However, I do not think that Saakashvili was “reasonable” to shell South Ossetia in such a way just because he gave the “population the time to leave the battlefield to survive”. Many innocent people died in this shelling. There is nothing more valuable than human life.
Exactly this provided Putin with a reason to bomb Georgia – a public relations disaster for Georgia. Although Russia is not a very popular country in Austria, many of my friends think that Russia was reasonable in its actions. There is very little thought of supporting Georgia.
It would have been a better way to point out the advantages of Georgia to the people of South Ossetia: a) freedom, b) prosperity and c) a chance for long-term development. All things the people living in South Ossetia are/were missing.
As for Saakashvili: I was very happy when he kicked out the old corrupt guard in 2003. What a promising start – but what a disappointing end in 2007. And what a disaster now.
Interesting Article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4488503.ece
P.S. I see. I attended a seminar with Tom in Germany – I really liked it a lot. There was somebody from Georgia there so I thought maybe it’s you. 🙂